"Sneaky Pete" (trappster)
07/21/2015 at 13:23 • Filed to: None
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"Sneaky Pete" (trappster)
07/21/2015 at 13:23 • Filed to: None | 5
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Today’s edition of “dispelling a common automotive misconception” relates to one of the more polarizing vehicles produced, the Dodge Viper.
The commonly held misconception that we will be dispelling is the piece of information that many self-proclaimed auto enthusiasts like to share with others to show off their superior knowledge about a vehicle, that because of this “fact,” relegates the car to a second class, redneck supercar - the 8.0L V10 that lies beneath the long, curved hood, is from a truck.
This is categorically false. While Dodge was developing a V10 at the time with the intention of utilizing the superior torque in their truck line, this engine had nothing in common (aside from bore spacing) with the V10 Dodge was developing in conjunction with Lamborghini’s (whom Chrysler owned at the time) assistance with the cast aluminum block.
In fact, the exact opposite of the misconception is actually true when it comes to the V10 that appeared in later SRT10 Ram Trucks - the engine was taken from the Viper.
Straight from former SRT head and current FCA head of design, Ralph Gilles:
www.youtube.com/watch?v=5hdf7VtmOjI
Jordan and the Slowrunner, Boomer Intensifies
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 13:28 |
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IIRC hardly any parts are swappable between the two.
davedave1111
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 13:30 |
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“this “fact,” relegates the car to a second class, redneck supercar - the 8.0L V10 that lies beneath the long, curved hood, is from a truck”
I’m pretty sure that having an eight litre V10 under the bonnet is what makes the Viper a redneck supercar.
LongbowMkII
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 13:30 |
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It was more cost effective to develop a updated Chrysler V8 and add more power by adding 2 more cylinders. Yeah I trust Wikipedia more than FCA.
HammerheadFistpunch
> LongbowMkII
07/21/2015 at 13:32 |
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really? I don’t hold a manufacture up to the highest standards of truth telling but...wikipedia?
McMike
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 13:37 |
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Reckon I’ll just leave this here, y’all.
RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> davedave1111
07/21/2015 at 13:40 |
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What it’s always smacked most of to me is a throwback to the aero-engine beasts of the twenties and thirties. And of course the various Allison V12 things thrown together after the war.
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Sneaky Pete
> LongbowMkII
07/21/2015 at 13:59 |
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I don’t see how this makes the Viper V10 a truck engine, but thanks for the input.
The base architecture for the Viper V10 (bore spacing) was based on the common, well used 360 V8 and the V10 installed in one of the test mule Vipers was an iron block, truck V10, but this engine had essentially zero in common with the production Viper V10.
www.allpar.com/history/interviews/chris-theodore/viper-cars.html
lonestranger
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 14:25 |
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There’s a pretty solid reason why the Viper’s engine didn’t come “from a truck”. The Magnum 8.0 was first introduced in the then-new 1994 Ram. The Viper had already been out for two years by then.
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lonestranger
> LongbowMkII
07/21/2015 at 14:27 |
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Your first sentence is absolutely true if you are referring to the Magnum 8.0 in the Ram. It is, for all intents and purposes, a Magnum 5.9 (360 c.i) V8 with two cylinders added.
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davedave1111
> RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
07/21/2015 at 14:39 |
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I think that’s a bit of a tenuous connection. I can see where you’re coming from, but those things were cutting edge back then.
On the other hand, I should probably have added that I don’t think being the redneck supercar is a bad thing. The Viper has never been intended to be an American Ferrari, or some such pastiche.
Supercar originally was short for super-sports car, but these days things have moved on to the extent that we get super- other cars too. The Juke R, for example. Or a super-hot hatch. The Viper was perhaps the first super-muscle car.
Ironically, they used to say that when you bought a Ferrari you paid for the engine and got the rest of the car thrown in free. Seems to fit with the Viper.
Shift24
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 14:40 |
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That might be true that the production engine is different but the idea first came from transplanting the V10 from a truck into the Viper. From Francois Castaing “the idea of creating a concept car like the Cobra, using the big gas truck engine as a core, came up.”
And it originally did have very much in common at first. From Tom Gale “So when we built the concept car, we took a 360 (cubic-inch V-8) and literally grafted on the front two cylinders and made a running engine”. The only 360 Dodge was running at the time was for their trucks so this is where the misconception comes from.
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RamblinRover Luxury-Yacht
> davedave1111
07/21/2015 at 14:48 |
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I wasn’t meaning a direct connection of any kind, just the general sense of taking an extra step beyond eight cylinders. Anything with *merely* a big engine would be a classic high performance redneck-mobile. Anything with a bigger-than-big engine and too many cylinders seems (thematically at least) to reach for the Higher Plane occupied by the monsters of old in their own times.
Related to that, the engines *in* the aero-engine beasts were usually pretty cutting edge for their day as well - less so in the post-war Allison craze. Just... engines not really meant to be in a car, as such.
PS9
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 14:49 |
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The entire ‘it came from a truck though!’ thing is dumb. Are truck horsepowers somehow worse than sportscar horsepowers? Are these people aware that cars cannot pass specific traits down to other cars of the same make/brand in the way that a biological creature could to it’s offspring? The entire thing is artificial.
It is completely irrelevant wherever else an engine or subset of engines find application so long as it does it’s job well when it powers a sports car.
quickquest88
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 14:56 |
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even if it was from a truck, engine sharing is hardly new.
I once owned an ‘88 Conquest. beautiful car. It shared a motor with a FORK LIFT!! It had quite a bit of torque for a 4 cylinder. With a small turbo upgrade, I could hold a power slide for days thanks to the limited slip diff.
E30Kid
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 15:00 |
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Too bad it still sounds terrible
I loved the Viper as a kid, but I am still very disappointed by the sound that it makes
Steve is equipped with Electronic Fool Injection
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 15:01 |
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And this piece of insanity is for sale nearby... for cheap...
TractorPillow
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 15:01 |
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Fully agree with everything you wrote.
On the other hand...who cares!?!? The thing is the spawn of beauty and the beast before he went back to human if beauty and the beast were cars(ok, I havent seen the movie in 20 years, but makes sense after a couple beers). It’s a gorgeous engine and your average person has no clue if it was made in 1992 or 2012, they just see
VIPER
and are blown away.
jjhats
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 15:09 |
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doesn't change the fact that the original viper was a parts bin special project and has many other truck components like the hubs
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Sneaky Pete
> E30Kid
07/21/2015 at 15:20 |
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Matter of opinion. Some also like the sound of a loud in line four, most think it sounds like ass.
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Sneaky Pete
> jjhats
07/21/2015 at 15:22 |
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Upper control arms, countless sensors, yadda, yadda. Doesn’t change the fact that everyone that continues to spout the truck engine junk is wrong.
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E30Kid
> Sneaky Pete
07/21/2015 at 15:41 |
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I love the noise that most V10s make, but I don’t think that the Viper’s high displacement does it any favors
BloodlessWeevil
> Sneaky Pete
07/22/2015 at 08:41 |
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“relegates the car to a second class”
Does anyone really think that? This “second class” would include all other American sports cars. No one could possibly be that thick.
Tohru
> quickquest88
08/10/2015 at 14:15 |
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My Ram 50 used a fork lift engine too. All I would have had to do is swap the carb and it’d have been good for running on LP.
RangerSmith
> jjhats
08/21/2015 at 01:13 |
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You’re sure about that, huh? Everyone knows the old saying about what happens when you “assume” something. What’s even worse is that, its not even your original thought. Just something you heard somewhere and regurgitated. I have personally driven a ‘94 and a 2006(both the cars and myself lived to tell about it) and they were both THE BUSINESS.
http://www.wheelsupport.com/dodge-bolt-pat…
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jjhats
> RangerSmith
08/21/2015 at 08:16 |
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me hearing it and seeing the 6 lug truck hubs affirms what I have heard is correct
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RangerSmith
> jjhats
08/21/2015 at 08:58 |
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What exactly makes it having 6 lugs makes it a “truck hub”? Especially when all the Dodge 1/4, 1/2, 3/4 trucks and vans used either a 5 lug or 8 lug bolt pattern?
The number of lugs used has more to do with what engineers determine is needed to prevent brakes from warping under high torque or lateral cornering situations. Having a certain number or more lugs doesn’t make it a “truck hub”, it just means that the vehicle needed to be over-engineered.
Even the actual hub/center bore size is different than any Dodge vehicle until 2005 (Avenger).
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jjhats
> RangerSmith
08/21/2015 at 09:08 |
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taken from viperclub:
Had 6, since 05 has had 5 lugs
I will say it again, because the Dakota had 6. The hubs were the same when the Viper came out. Remember the car has lots of parts bin items on it.
http://forums.viperclub.org/threads/613289…